Lacquer retarder sherwin williams

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View previous topic :: View next topic  AuthorMessageleftyjay



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PostPosted: Sat May 18, pm    Post subject: which lacquer thinner should i buy?Reply with quote

i have used lacquer a few times on projects, but mainly just the RR spray cans. i have recently been using acrylic urethane (car paint).

i have a project that is going to be painted in lacquer. i am going to use Sherwin Williams LOVOC lacquer with my spraying rig and wanted to know if all thinners are created equal? can i buy over the counter lacquer thinner? or should i go back to SW and pickup their thinner?

what do you guys use?
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ghobii



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PostPosted: Sat May 18, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the Crown thinner that Sherwin Williams sells with the LOVOC. Crown has been around a while and I doubt you'll have any problems with it.
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ladyfinisher



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PostPosted: Sat May 18, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never seen any difference. In fact, I seldom find the same label on the can at the paint store. If they sell automotive paint the thinner they well will be good.

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leftyjay



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PostPosted: Sat May 18, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think i seen crown lacquer thinner at lowes.

i just wasnt sure if i had to get a special kind of lacquer thinner or just some cleanstrip or rustoleum brand would be ok
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use SW 12x3 thinner.
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leftyjay



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PostPosted: Sun May 19, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

after many, many hours of searching the world wide web, looking through wood worker forums and a few other guitar forums, i decided to get a gallon of SW K27 retarder thinner. It is for high humidity, high heat climates like we have here in SW Florida.

it should diminish the chance of blushing and smooth the surface to decrease the amount of sanding needed in the end.

luckily, i have a SW just a few miles away that carries these cabinet/furniture finishes.
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scottystrathead



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PostPosted: Sun May 19, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Negative. K 27 is pure retarder .I use it to add too the mix.
You want a medium thinner to just thin with and the K27 you just barely add any on humid days and I add it on my last coat for a smooth finish.
If you use that and a reduction thinner it will be next Christmas before that thing will dry.
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the telecaster forum (TDPRI), they swear that K27 is the way to go.

"Best Stuff I have found so far. Its not a pure retarder, and I have used it up to with lacquer. Really helps in the hot weather down here, and makes the lacquer flow out smoother. Plus it still dries quickly and hard."
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from what i read, it's not a pure retarder.

just incase, i did buy some SW lacquer thinner (R7K)
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Lacquer retarder

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8 posts • Page 1 of 1

Lacquer retarder

Postby SEL » Feb Fri 03, am

I can not find lacquer retarder locally.<BR>Any suggestions?<BR>Can anyone suggest a on line store?<BR>Thanks<BR>SEL<BR><P><BR>
SEL
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Lacquer retarder

Postby exray » Feb Fri 03, am

Do you have a Sherwin-Williams store nearby? The should have it or be able to get it.<BR>Sales Number Product Number <BR> R06K Reducer - Butyl Cellosolve R6K25<P>-Bill<P><BR><A HREF="http://www.sparkbench.com/homebrew/homebrew.html" TARGET=_blank>The Sparkbench</A>
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Lacquer retarder

Postby metroman » Feb Sun 05, am

<A HREF="http://www.touchupdepot.com" TARGET=_blank>www.touchupdepot.com</A> is another option, #LR, $ / gallon.<P><BR>
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Lacquer retarder

Postby exray » Feb Sun 05, pm

For the past few years I've been using an acrylic 'reducer' obtained at a car paint store. I no longer have the original can but I recall it mentioned use with nitrocellulose lacquer.<P>It works somewhat. I suspect it is one of those "slow" thinners that has retarder mixed in. Any comments on this stuff in lieu of Butyl Cellosolve?<P>-Bill<P><BR><A HREF="http://www.sparkbench.com/homebrew/homebrew.html" TARGET=_blank>The Sparkbench</A>
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Lacquer retarder

Postby metroman » Feb Mon 06, pm

Reducers for automotive paint work usually have a temp range, the hotter the temp the slower the evaporation rate. Other than wash thinner, finding lacquer based paints and solvents for automotive use is getting tough in the US. Some restoration shops still shoot ni-cel lacquer so Im sure the reducer is still available, finding it locally may be a problem though.<P><BR>
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Lacquer retarder

Postby Hagstar » Feb Wed 08, am

Hagstar wrote:<font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by exray:<BR><B>For the past few years I've been using an acrylic 'reducer' obtained at a car paint store. <BR></B><HR>
<P>Yes as I have mentioned many times I also have used such a product for years with good results.<P>The use of medium drying thinner (KleenStrip) though has eliminated most of my need for retarder of late (thanks Dennis D. for this tip). NOTE: ALL really good thinners for actually mixing with lacquer and spraying will always work poorly as a stripper or cleaner. Use cheap fast drying "hot" Sunnyside thinner for those purposes <IMG SRC="http://antiqueradios.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>John H.<P><P><BR> "We have met the enemy, and he is an old paper capacitor." Shotgun Johnny
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Lacquer retarder

Postby SEL » Feb Thu 09, am

Thanks for all of your replies they are helpful<P><BR>
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Lacquer retarder

Postby mrutkaus » Feb Thu 09, pm

i have found that after having a martini, the lacquer does dry more slowly.<P>mike<P><BR>
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Chapter 6 - Finishes - Lacquers

Understanding Lacquer Thinner

Is it okay to combine your preferred brand of finish with a thinner made by a different manufacturer? Here's a close, careful look at that question. April 29,

Question
My supplier has continued to increase price on M.L. Campbell lacquer thinner till it�s now over $ per gallon. Does anyone know if Sherwin Williams or another brand will be okay to thin M.L. Campbell finishes with, especially Resistant and Clawlock?

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(Finishing Forum)
From contributor F:
I understand your frustration but that road will take you further than you want to go. Sooner or later it will lead to disaster. We have experienced brand X thinner being added into MagnaMax opaque and the set of cabinets streaking yellow. SW and MLC take a totally different approach to solvent development. For instance SW uses a lot of MEK and MAK to where MLC only uses Keytones limitedly. All thinner is not created equal. Plus if you ever had coating failure you will be left eating that cost because you used multiple manufactures. I know that this is not what you want to hear but I would rather help than hinder. I would thin Clawlock but I don't recommend thinning Resistant unless absolutely necessary. Hope this helps.



From contributor D:
Is that for the standard thinner? If so that's pretty steep. I keep thinking of going to fives to save a couple bucks, but it�s a hassle to handle. I don't know where you�re located but unless you�re outside of the lower 48 I'd talk to someone at your supplier and ask why they're so much more expensive than everyone else. I have used the hardware store items on a couple "emergencies" when my supplier was closed with no ill effects. For the few extra bucks I like the peace of mind of staying within the same brand.


From contributor A:
The prices for these solvents will continue to rise. The chemicals in that can are a bargain if you think about it. I order 55 gallon drums of lacquer thinner at a time (we use Becker Acroma and some Campbell products) but we keep reducers for both. It's best to not mix and match when the professional chemists have done all that work for you.


From contributor C:
I personally have never had much problem when mixing and matching. I always spray full strength and use retarder on a blush. I cut Clawlock recently with Home Depot thinner in an emergency one cup to a gallon. It flowed like glass. I top coated it and shipped it 12 hours later. It was beautiful.


From contributor J:
I use Valspar, but assume MLC would be comparable. If you like working out of one gallon pails or however it comes at that quantity, just pour it off from the five into the smaller container (you must have some empties).


From contributor F:
Lacquer thinners have different ingredients in their recipes that work well with corresponding ingredients in their top coat products. That doesn't mean using a different brand of LT will cause problems, just that it may not be as well suited, and as some have mentioned it could react unfavorably.


From contributor E:
Different finishes within the same brand are very different and may use completely different types of solvents. So just because one brand may own another does not mean their finishes are the same or that the solvents used to reduce them are interchangeable.

Finish chemists go to great lengths to develop solvent packages to work optimally in different finishes and unwittingly swapping them out for something different is just asking for trouble. It helps some if you learn the difference between generic terms like lacquer thinner and retarder and the specific chemical names of individual solvents like Butyl Acetate, Acetone, and etc. But for most of us the best bet is to bite the bullet on cost and use the solvent that the manufacturer says to use.



From Paul Snyder, forum technical advisor:
Lacquer thinner isn�t as mysterious as it seems. It�s a blend of solvents from the following solvent �families�:

Ketones - acetone, Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK), Methyl n-Propyl Ketone, Methyl Isobutyl Ketone (MIBK), Methyl Isoamyl Ketone (MIAK), Methyl n-Amyl Ketone (MAK), Diisobutyl Ketone, etc.

Esters - Ethyl Acetate, Isopropyl Acetate, Propyl Acetate, Isobutyl Acetate, Butyl Acetate, Methyl Amyl Acetate, Propylene Glycol Methyl Ether Acetate (Eastman PM Acetate), Amyl Acetate, Ethyl 3-ethoxypropionate (EEP), etc.

Glycol Ethers - Propylene glycol monomethyl ether, Propylene Glycol Butyl Ether, Ethylene Glycol Butyl Ether (Butyl Cellosolve, Eastman EB), etc.

Alcohols - Methanol, Ethanol, Propanol, Butanol, Diacetone Alcohol, etc.

Petroleum Distillates - Toluene, xylene, �high-flash� naphtha (fast evaporating), naptha, etc.

The solvents in each family are listed according to how fast they evaporate, fastest to slowest. In these blends, the Ketones, Esters, and Glycol ethers have the strength to actually dissolve the lacquer and are called �active� solvents. Alcohols don�t have the strength to dissolve lacquer, but work in combination with the solvents that do, so they�re called �latent� solvents. Petroleum distillates don�t have enough strength to dissolve lacquer but are useful to adjust viscosity (how thick/syrupy or thin/runny the finish is) and they�re called �diluents.�

If the lacquer thinner contains too much alcohol or diluents (which is sometimes the case with inexpensive brands meant for parts cleaning, not coatings), the lacquer will not stay dissolved and will come out of solution causing it to turn white or have white chunks in the final finish. Also, mixing too much oil-base stain with your finish to make a toner will cause the lacquer to come out of solution (oil-base means petroleum distillates). That�s why it�s a good idea to thin the stain with lacquer thinner or one of the ketones before mixing it with the lacquer - it makes it compatible by lowering the percentage of petroleum distillates.

Good brands of lacquer thinner that are made for coatings are interchangeable. I buy a good quality, no-brand name lacquer thinner in 55 gallon drums and the price is very good compared to buying it in smaller quantities. The main differences between brands will be minor variations in the evaporation rate and the HAPs and VOCs.

Slow evaporating active solvents (e.g., MAK, IBIB, Butyl Cellosolve, etc.) are called retarders. You can add these in small quantities to eliminate blushing. Also, if your lacquer has orange peel or dry spray, thin it with more lacquer thinner and adjust it slightly with medium to slow evaporating solvents to improve its flow-out. Personally, I always have a supply of MAK on hand because it's also compatible with 2K poly.

By learning about the solvents in the finishes you use, you will have the ability to get better results in a wide range of situations. Then you�ll need to find a supplier that stocks the solvents you want.



From contributor D:
CM, flow enhancer, retarder, and lacquer thinner all perform the same function - to thin the lacquer and allow it to flow out. You use different combinations depending on the weather. I keep a little cheat sheet my supplier gave me to know when I need to add a little reducer or retarder to the mix.

So for most of the winter I go straight lacquer thinner. Once we start into the summer months I start subbing a little reducer, as straight LC evaporates too fast. Then if it's really hot and humid I'll break out the retarder.

Lastly all finishes are different viscosities, if you have one you can spray right from the can that's great. Most that I've used do require some degree of thinning to be able to spray them out. Depending on the equipment some may need a lot of thinning. For instance a Turbine HVLP requires significantly more thinning than a AAA setup. The minimum for me is 10% and some finishes go up to 20% also depending on the conditions.

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Williams lacquer retarder sherwin

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  1. ,  PM#1

    Lacquer Retarder

    I've used lacquer in the past and cut with lacquer thinner. When I picked up some lacquer at the paint store the other day, they recommended I use a retarder with the lacquer to help the finish even out a little better since it slows the cure time. I bit, and bought a gallon. My question is, what kind of ratio should I used in mixing in the retarder with the lacquer. The lacquer I have says it is already set up for spraying and doesn't need any cutting. Thanks,

  2. ,  AM#2
    Join Date
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    The lacquer retarder is something you use "sparingly". It doesn't take much to do a decent job on retarding the dry time. I usually mix in about 2 ounces into a quart mix and spray. Retarding lacquer does help it to "lay down" better in my experiences, but a gallon of retarder will last you many years unless you do a LOT of finishing.

    There is even a technique in the furniture industry where they "flood finish" a furniture finish after a few coats of lacquer. It's more like 80% lacquer thinner and 20% lacquer and sprayed on. Supposed to help the onverall finish be more glossy on a high gloss finish. Never tried it though.
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  3. ,  PM#3
    2 oz per quart of product is pushing the limits IMHO. that amount will most likely greatly increase the curing time (which you must pay attention to between coats) and might cause other issues, like a very soft finish for over a month if you layer coats of acrylic lacquer on a table top and retard every coat (don't ask me how I know this)said statement is based upon the concept that a quart of product is lets say 20 oz of lacquer, 10 oz of thinner and 2 oz of retarder.

    the PDS sheet for the retarder should give some information about what % of reduction is allowed, or it might be in the PDS sheet for the lacquer you are shooting. I know for Sherwin Williams products the specs are in the PDS for the lacquer (I just sprayed some today and used about 1 oz of retarder in a quart of product to deal with 69% humidity)

  4. ,  PM#4
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    I never use retarder unless its so hot its starts drying before it hits the surface

  5. ,  AM#5
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    Limit the use of retarder

    ..as you have read. A retarder is usually used to prevent "blushing", a clouding of lacquer as it dries under very humid conditions. Blushing isn't permanant as you can recoat and cure the problem. Lacquer thinner is not all the same, by far. You need to use a quality lacquer thinner and use a slow to hot thinner depending on the daily temperature. You also need to keep in perspective of what and what size of the project you are spraying. If it's degrees in my shop and I'm spraying a small object, it really dosen't matter what thinner I'm using. If I'm spraying a 4'x8', I better have a slow thinner in the gun. Mix your lacquer with all thinners at 50/50 and strain through a nylon stocking.
    Phil in Big D
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  6. ,  PM#6
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    Lacquer retarder is typically used in times of high temperature and/or high humidity. It's normally not needed when spraying in normal environmental conditions. It's also used to make lacquer suitable for brushing.

    If the sprayed lacquer not leveling properly you may not have your gun controls set up properly.

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